shooting an intruder
 

last night someone broke into our house. luckily my girlfriend heard something going on. for some reason she didnt wake me up, but instead turned on the lights and went downstairs to confront the would be robbers with her intimidating 98# figure. whoever it was ran off. we will be using the house alarm now, but id like to know, can i shoot someone, as long as they are inside and evident that they broke in? im planning on getting my concealed weapons permit, but in the meantime i just have a 45 ruger i picked up at the last gunshow and a semi automatic shotgun.

This might help....

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html

A couple of things came to mind when I read your post:

1) I need to get an alarm system:rolleyes:
2) Generally speaking, if no one else in the house (ie: kids in a separate room) is/are in danger, DON'T go looking for the burglar!
They know where they are, what they're going to do if they're caught (in most cases) and you don't know whether they are armed!
Secure yourself and loved one in a locked room, and call the Police on a cell phone rather than a hard wired phone if possible.
Let them do what you pay them to do!
(this also sets up a great defense for your use of force claim)
Nothing material in that house is worth your life:nonod:

3) Tell her next time (God willing there won't be a "next time") wake you the F**k up!:rofl1:

And since we're talking about the use of deadly force, remember: ALWAYS IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET!!!!

Don't f**k up and shoot your kid, brother, etc., who happens to stagger in the door late at night without a key, and doesn't want to wake you!
You're not covered under the doctrine!:NoNo:

The above link is a great source, especially for concealed weapon licensees.
Make sure you read it all to the get the full effect of the doctrine/law.

Here's a couple more that you may find helpful:

"Castle Doctrine"

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/26916167/detail.html

http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm

In the last one: the section underlined and in red, is a bit misleading to most.

To commit a burglary, you DO NOT have to "break" in as common thought assumes, nor do you need to use force to enter a dwelling or structure, in order to commit the offense of "Burglary."

Burglary Defined:
(generally)

(Defined Per Florida Statute)

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0810.02.html

Here's where you have to be careful:
(F.s.s.: 776.08)
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...s/0776.08.html

"Trespassing (with exception, a misdemeanor in most cases) can not be the basis for "burglary."

When the state is looking at the charge, they're looking for "other charges" such as larceny (theft), assault, Home invasion, etc., combined with the unlawful entry or remaining therein.

Recap:
Burglary= The unlwful entry/remaining in a structure or conveyance (vehicle for short) w/intent to commit some crime other than trespassing therein=FORCIBLE FELONY.
Forcible Felony=The right to the use of deadly force).

And again, there's no need to retreat from the threat!!
Identify your target!

I'll keep this short and simple. No offense intended to Shadow. :D

If someone breaks into your house you better use the 45 if you're confronted. I don't think I would even say 'freeze'. They know you're in there and obviously don't care. That's serious business and scary to even think about. Your girlfriend is a very lucky lady.

Usually a shotgun would be the weapon of choice. You don't have to worry about a projectile penetrating walls and killing your neighbor. A guy I knew in Ft Worth woke up to the sound of an explosion. His neighbor was cleaning a gun, it fired and the bullet went through two walls and demolished his TV set.

No offense taken. Why would there be?
If you're "confronted", then sure, protect yourself and your loved ones.

OTOH, DO NOT go looking for them unless you have kids or family in another room.

If someone comes into my home unannounced, with my grandaughter on the other end of the house, I'm going hunting~!

But those are extenuating circumstances.

Otherwise, you might be wise to heed the advise previously given, lock yourself in the room with your weapon trained on the door, and comfortably braced and shielded by, lets say a bed, and call the cops on your cell phone (they can cut hardwires).

You might live long enough to tell about it.

Did you not see the smiley?

I'm just sayen if they break in knowing it's occupied it is be a much more dangerous scenario. They're probably armed and prepared to kill. If they come to your bedroom, identify the target and shoot. Do not hesitate.

It is sooo much easier to know what to do in a cockpit. If you come in they don't walk out.

I didn't know if that issue had been settled. Can you explain who carries and describe the weapon?

Apparently not:(

This is exactly what I teach in our personal safety and defense course given to the general public.
Stay put. get ready, know what you're going to do, alert the authorities and wait.
If they take the china, so be it.
DOn't be a hero...the funerals are boring:(

That's gotta be bitch on flight attendants:lmao:

BTW-Who makes the call now as to cockpit weapons?
Is it the airline or the pilot?

Please look cause it's there. :thumbsup:

we have an alarm, we just didnt set it at night when we were sleeping. we are settingthe alarm at night now and im planning on putting another deadbold on the door. one that you can only work from the inside, slides into a hole i drill thru the tile and into the concrete foundation. no key, just locks from the inside. also put rods in the slidding glass door tracks. thanks for everyones input and rest assure im not trying to shoot anyone, i was just pretty worked up when the whole thing happened. sarah is explicetly clear on the procedure of waking both alec and i up in case of emergency. if this happens again, i hope that the alarm going off will be enough to send whatever piece of $hit runnig, and most likely save their life. ive warned the neighbors, as strange as it sounds im glad they targeted us and not some of the neighbors. they are older and likely unable to protect themselves. not to say old=weak. i just know my neighbors. thanks for everyones help.

all the bedrooms are upstairs in our house

Damn if I'm going to hide in the bedroom while the cretins steal me blind. If the cops even show up before they leave, they probably wouldn't prosecute anyway. Just make the perps give back what they were trying to steal and send them on their merry way, telling me I need to file civil charges if I can prove damages.... :rolleyes:

I am going to just have to assume that Connie and I are on our own in something like this. To assume otherwise COULD put us into leading roles in that funeral indicated above.

BTW, if you NEED to shoot a perp in your house, your first shot will likely temporarily blind you as well as deafen you, so make sure it counts. YOU will also be spotted at that time as well so don't stay where you were when you fired. Bear in mind that flimsy wooden doors and walls made of sheetrock will NOT protect you from return fire, if that happens. Your only protection will be to NOT be where they shoot at.

I'm starting to think you're anti cops but a lot of your friends are LEO's. I do understand your attitude but friends are friends.

Shadow posted good advice. I've had some advanced training also and if you're moving about the house your chances of winning diminish greatly. Facts are facts and this is one battle you do not want to lose.

I'm not taking sides on this issue but I want you to be safe. We need you. :thumbsup:

Even better.
You now have a tactical advantage:thumbsup:
Do you have the ability to light up the lower level from the top?

That of course is your choice my friend and only you can make that decision if/when the time comes.
If that's your decision, I sincerely hope you prevail.:thumbsup:

Although my courses are coed, most are attended by women, many of them business professionals.

Historically and physiologically speaking, most women are less equipped to deal with an armed intruder than an man, and most intruders, especially the nighttime burgler genre' are men.
Of course there's always the exception to the rule on both sides of the gender barrier.

When you do classes with such diverse groups, you have to be general rather than too specific.
If I'm doing 1 on 1 training at your place, then we can be more gender and location specific.
My recommendations are based on actual incidences, historical data and fact, not bravado.

Rich, my brother, my friend,...,enough...as a friend...enough.

Well, you do live in the boonies, and any choice to do so carries with it, it's own set of risks.
The more remote I become, the less likely law enforcement will reach me before the bad guy.

Look at the recent hijacking of the rich couple doing a 7 year world tour on thier private yacht.
Talk about remote!:eek:

They're now in the hands of pirates off the coast of Somali...go figure?:rolleyes:
The Coast Guard/Navy were never going to make it in time to thwart the attack and the pirates knew that.
Now everyone is in D/C mode.
Hopefully, it'll end similarly to last time with a few cheap rounds and a safe passenger and crew list.

But Somali pirates or not, they're not stupid.
They'll adapt.

These folks should have planned better.
Spend some money and hire some professionals!

Back to the post.....If you actually read my post, you'd realize I never said DON'T SHOOT the fecker!
I'm all for taking the bad guy out of play.
At the same time, I'm just as attuned to keeping the good guys in the game:thumbsup:

In this scenario, you'll actually be setting yourself up for a much better shot while maintaining a high degree of safety for you and Connie.

And remember, this is still a property crime (until they come popping through that locked door;)).

In this case, you'll have a limited and controlled field of fire, potential backlighting from the hallway or ambient lighting to sillouette the intruder, cover and concealment, a stable and comfortable shooting position and a benched weapon at your disposal:thumbsup:

A cup of coffee and a donut and you could wait there all night:lmao:

You've also set up a PERFECT scenario to eliminate any hint of question, criminal or civil, regarding the perpetrators intent and/or your mindset.
This one's so simple, even Calhoun County and the DOAC (your CCW authority) could figure it out:D

If you're concerned about Connie's safety, you'll want to be there to protect her.
If you decide to go looking for the intruder, and she hears gunshots, she may not know if it's you or them?
This leads to other issues which we won't get into at the moment (just some hypothetical "training scenario" crap).

If things went well, you can shout to her and all is good.

If things did not go so well, you've now left her alone in the house, in the boonies, unprotected (save for whatever weapon she may possess), still waiting for the cops to arrive, with what are now really pissed off, and possibly wounded animals.

Not the best scenario I can imagine:nonod:

This is the point i have the most difficulty making, especially to men.
You see, in these cases, it's not about "me" and my "bravery", my machismo, and it's not about my "property" or "my stuff."

It's about protecting my life and the lives of those I love and care about.

In my situation, when I hear something at night, I have to go investigate.
I have no choice.

While my son is 6'2" in great shape, a trained martial artist, and his room is further back in the house, away from the doors, my daughter and grandaughter's room is on the other side of the house, closer to the front door, sliding rear glass door and garage/washroom door:(.
The daughter is no where near capable of defending herself to any reasonable degree, and the grand baby is 5!

And aside from his ability to defend himself better, my son is usually gone until 3-4 am anyway (another "bump in the night" issue I have to deal with-but fortunately, he has a routine:)).

Many times, I'mm up until 2-3 am anyway and when my daughter is gone for the weekend, I sleep in the living room, esentially between my grandaughter and whatever harm may come to her.

There's no machismo there...it's a matter of necessity and planning.

Good points.
Actually, your first shot will provide you with a momentary sight picture.
We've done a ton of night shooting betweeen the military and law enforcement.
it's not as bad as it might seem. Not ideal, but not a deal ender either.

The auditory senses actually shut themselves down to protect the body.
You're right though. You won't be able to hear crap well for a while after multiple rounds are discharged. You'll still be able to hear, just very muffled (ask me how I know?
(I knew I forgot something before I gave the command to fire!:lmao:)

Gordon, my friend, don't presume to tell me what to do on my own site. I'm calling things as I see them. Period.

And you have no idea of the layout of my house, or what is best for ME and CONNIE, HERE in THIS situation. This house was designed to be open, allow us to view the outside and attendant nature from most rooms. Single ground floor, windows all around with no curtains. We like watching birds at the feeders while laying in bed in the morning. Certainly not built as a fortress with a "safe" room anywhere. Quite simply, anyone casing our house for 2 minutes would know where we were located simply by looking in the windows. To remain in ANY room waiting for the calvary, hoping the bad guys wouldn't "find" us, is ludicrous. If there is an intruder in my house, I am not even going to take my attention off of my surroundings for an instant to reach for the phone. That might be a couple of seconds that I just can't waste in that manner.

Quite honestly, probably the only reason that no one has ever really bothered us here is because EVERYONE knows we have snakes and we have guns. And I'm not telling them we don't have the snakes any longer.... :hehehe: And you can bet people seeing us drive up and down our road in Corvettes will get ideas.... However, anyone passing by our driveway and seeing me likely notices that I am ALWAYS carrying a gun.

I don't care what my friends do for a living. But I will call a "spade" as a "spade". They can either deal with it or not. I'm sure a lot of my friends didn't care for the fact that I bred snakes for a living, and will kill a snake when ever they had a chance, regardless. Should I hold that against them and drop them as friends?

And as mentioned in my previous post, my house would be a death trap to simply sit in place and wait if someone had designs of bodily injury. I am just not willing to give a bad guy any advantage whatsoever. And I certainly am not going to cower in a corner hoping they will just take what they want and not hurt me, neither.

It is the pilot's choice if he/she want's to become a FFDO, Federal Flight Deck Officer. You go through several written test and a psychiatrist evaluation. After that it is a week training at the same place as the border patrol and FMAs. You get credentials just like the FMAs but your jurisdiction is only the cockpit so you don't need as much training.

I was a FFDO but you can't carry international so I am not anymore. I won't say what the gun is but it is extremely good quality and more than enough. There are tons of FFDOs and even though the current administration and most the airlines don't want the responsibility it is a good thing.

The airlines don't want you because of the risk of problems and there have been some. Pilots do this, paying for their own training and bear the responsibility of the weapon. All this is done for the aircraft security and yes I'm sure a few have gotten out of speeding tickets:D

Man, I don't know where to go with this.
Frankly, I've never seen/heard this side of you:(

Part of me say's to ignore it, consider the reason for it, and move on.
The other says, we have an open enough site that I can respond without retribution.
I guess we'll see?

I'm responding as an individual, and a former member of the class you seem to have so much disdain toward lately.

Now...first, I realize whose site it is. I don't need reminding, thanks.
However, that door swings both ways.

I'm saying (IMO) that your perception is skewed, slanted due to recent events.
But you're right.

And aside from it being "your site", as a citizen you still have the right to continually voice your opposition or disdain for law enforcement in general, without fear of sanctions or retribution.
It's one of those neat little constitutional protections we have goin' on :thumbsup:

At the same time, many of us have the right to disagree and in some cases, be offended.

To me, this wide brush approach is equivalent to me saying (IMO), "all snake breeders are irresponsible", simply because "some" didn't have the decency not to turn loose certain breeds into the wilds of the Everglades, or failed to provide adequate caging for a breed that ultimately killed a small child.

You don't see me jumping up and down demanding that they outlaw private breeders do you?
I'm not even a big fan of them outlawing possession of certain species.
I don't want to be around them, but I don't think we should outlaw it for the responsible breeders.

Instead, we need to make sure we enforce the criteria set upon them and that they do what is expected of them.
And if they don't, deal with it as it should be dealt with.
Overall, a pretty simple concept.

Actually, most of the breeders and handlers I've known or met over the years, just as yourself, are far more responsible than that.:thumbsup:

I'm just not willing to paint everyone with the same wide brush.:NoNo:

Even in my own occasional "Anti-Government/Anti-Law enforcement rants, I try to be specific as to the agency, or the event.

I understand what you're saying.
Please re-read the post.
Instead of taking the offensive and thinking anyone is "telling you how to do things", look at the meat and potatoes.
The scenario is a generalization based on the "average" home.

If the comments are not pertinent tp your situation, just ignore them.

I really do put a lot ot thought into these posts, and generally rewrite them several times, trying never to respond in angst or anger.

If you do re-read the post, you'll catch this part you may have missed:
(which may have prompted your initial reaponse about your place?)

:banghead::banghead:

One on one training gets very specific.
We always find things never work as well in "real life" as they do in training.

The idea behind training, is to instill confidence in the trainee, get them thinking about thier surroundings, thier options and thier survival.
That's all.
It's not meant to be the end all to end all.
As I mentioned earlier, if my grandaughter is home, I'll violate my own suggestions to attempt to safeguard her.

As we all realize, modern construction doesn't provide ballistic protection.
I don't consider anything structurally other than a purpose built door or wall to be cover.

And if you live in a glass house, then pretty much any expectation of safety or privacy is nullified by anything other than the property location.

For the rest of the world, that locked door may provide a modicum of safety, as does the bed or dresser you're barricaded (not cowering) behind inside.

Moreso, it provides TIME!

Time for help to arrive.
Time for you to prepare.
Time for you to escape.

Even moreso, it sets the intent of the intruder from one bent on committing a property crime, to one focused on personal violence.

Then again, that's probably just another waste of time.

I guess...:shrug01:

I'm going to go out on a limb here.
I know I've made my share of comments here on this board regarding my dislike of snakes.
I don't "like" snakes.

And I've made my share of comments about boots, belts, and handbags.
Most people recognize this as banter, joking, sarcasm, and NONE of it that I can recall, has ever been focused on the breeder.
...Just the snake.:D
(I try not to insult large groups of people and thier occupations all at one time.)

Unlike the generalizations you've made regarding law enforcement and it's officers, I've never said "all snake handlers are creepy" or "they're all nuts."
I wouldn't do it, but that's me, and I don't understand snake breeding.
But I'm not ready to lump them all into the same cage:NoNo:

For the record, between law enforcement and private life, I'ver removed many snakes from various locations without killing them.
I didn't realize I needed to keep score?

I even had a "pet" garter snake that used to hang out in the Sago Palm at my front door.
1st time I saw him he scared the chit out of me!:eek:I'm sticking the key in the lock and the little SOB sticks his head out right at my hand!
Don't do that!:mad:

Kill him?
Nope, I named him "sneaky snake"...have no idea where he went, but we actually missed him (or her?) when it was gone:(


I guess it's all a matter of perception.
You consider it "cowering" and give the impression of some pansy, knees shaking, wetting himself, waiting for the "cavalry" to arrive and save him:lmao:

I consider it tactical preparedness!
Let's make the bad guy come to me, and we'll fight on my turf under my rules.

Once again, if you've read anything I've said, I've NEVER mentioned not capping some azzwipe that enters your house!

I simply propse letting them come to you if you can, rather than blundering around in the dark:D

I really don't consider sitting and waiting for someone to enter my field of fire "cowering.":lmao:
Apparently neither does the U.S. Military:rofl1:
(we called them snipers and "cowering' security stations:) )

And last time I looked, if we'd done a little more of what you consider "cowering" and little less gung ho-balls to the wall, we may have a few more live officers today:(

"Cover and Concealment"....a long way from "Cowering!"

JMHO....I'm not going to argue with you about it.
Take it as you may.:wavey:

Thanks Jeff. I was curious as to the round and not the make of the gun. If that's a problem for you to disclose that info I understand.

In the aircraft, what kind of rounds are you using? would a frangible round be enough to penetrate a person yet still disintigrate if it hit the fuselage?

Whatsa matter Rich? You normally have the most liberal views on allowing people to discuss things on "your site" without being ridiculed banned threatened etc. Why the lash out at someone else posting on the site? I don't see any of the posts as any sort of attack on you personally or your point of view in my opinion.

i appreciate everyones input, and had no have any intentions of this post going the way it did. there are 4 of us in the house. we all sat down and discussed what happened and planned how to act if we come into this situation again. everyone will be awake, the girls together armed in a room. (my girlfriend was in the national guard, and likely can shoot better then alec and i). they call the police. the way the house is setup, you can go partway down the stairwell partially covered (visually, not balistically) and have a clear view of the living room, office, front door. ect. there is enough ambiant light to clearly identify the intruder. we are using the alarm, also using an extra deadbolt, one that cannot be accessed from out door. and reinforced the sliding glass doors. the thing i hope people can take from this is everyone should have some sort of plan in place for everyone in their household. we live in a nice housing development and never thought this would happen to us.

You're not alone my friend.
Many of the subdivisions around here are gated, some guarded.

The gated ones we slip into with ease. Heck, I've even had people give me the code:nonod:

The guarded ones could be accesses easily enough for the dedicated criminal with a little ingenuity and a printer...need ID?

Finally, you can always just go over the fence:yesnod:


Well said brother!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

My brother is in a really nice sub division north of Orlando. About two/three years ago a new couple moved into a house down the street and within a week the guy was shot and killed while he was in his garage. I don't have any other details but it just goes to show ya what can happen.

I now keep a pistol in the garage.

Sorry if you may disagree and interpret that as me "lashing out" (yet you don't seem to interpret someone else telling me "ENOUGH" in a similar light), but I do not have to tolerate ANYONE telling me to shut up on my own forum. That is not a "liberal" nor a "conservative" view at all. It is merely ME saying what I am willing to continue to tolerate HERE. Someone telling me "enough" HERE is not only being rude, but definitely way overstepping their authority in this domain.

I do allow a fair amount of head bumping and chest thumping here, but it gets old after a while, and one way or another it will have to come to an end if carried on for too long.

Well ain't that just a hoot?:lmao:
So much for free speech:rolleyes:
It's ok, it proved something I needed to prove to myself.

BTW- Rich, at the risk of once again upsetting you, read the danged post again!

No one told you to "shut up!", on "your site" or anywhere else:rolleyes:

What I was trying to get across as politely as I could, were concerns being voiced to me by other members regarding your repeated disparaging commentary, and how it was likely to not only offend some of us that are/were in the field, but also many of those who have been long time friends and supporters of the site.
Guess it fell on deaf ears.

You probably couldn't see it, but the comments in one form or another, were showing up in almost every thread. It was becoming so much sour grapes.
Let's run off what's left of the house:nonod:

But now that I can speak freely (I think?), I'll say that personally, your continued disparaging comments, and apparent disdain toward anything law enforcement, was exceedingly insulting to ME!!
I'm sure I'm not alone.:thumbsdown:

Tolerate?
What are we, 4?

1st- My comments were not made under any "authority." They were made as a member and a friend, in an effort to keep you from alienating members.
And yes, despite what you think, I would have said the same thing to your face.
Enough was enough.
And that's MY feeling on the matter.

Second- I'm sorry to say, you did exactly what I expected:nonod:

Yeah, that was pretty much my point;)

Thank you for confirming that my decision was based on a sound judgment call.

Addendum: Gordon, please don't make any further disparaging back handed comments about me or this site nor "swan song" style posts.

WTF, This had been a good site. All he said was "enough was enough" meaning he said all he had to say.

Rich, you can hate the world but you can't take it out on us. There were no "disparaging back handed comments". I'm not going to get into any comments made by anyone on this site. I also know that we do not have freedom of speech on a privately owned site but I do know the day you exercise your right not to allow free speech you'll end up talking to yourself.

The day that Shadow or anyone else is removed from this site for voicing an opinion is the day that many others will also leave.

Edit: Now I see he's been removed as a mod. Damn.

Your interpretation of his intent is obviously faulty.



So I hate the world, eh? That sure covers a lot of territory. And how do you interpret anything I have said or done as "taking it out on us"? Who exactly is this "us" you speak of?

Sorry but I am not going to take the time to provide examples of the "back handed comments" to show you that you are incorrect. But they are there, nonetheless. And yes I did remove a "swan song" post that was not appropriate, for the record. I do understand that not everyone will be adept enough to pick up on something like this, and I do apologize for that.

"Free speech" nowhere is really unlimited. There are always going to be boundaries to what is acceptable fare. This place is no different than anywhere else in that respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob K (Post 132847) The day that Shadow or anyone else is removed from this site for voicing an opinion is the day that many others will also leave.

Allowing people to voice their opinion is not the same as my agreeing to allow anyone to be disparaging and/or condescending to me personally here in my own home. If anyone cares to leave because I won't permit that, then so be it. Anyone who would demand that of me is not welcomed here anyway. I seriously doubt that any of you in my shoes would allow it in similar circumstances.

And again for the record, I don't recall anyone ever being removed from this site for that sort of abuse. But that does not mean that it cannot happen, if warranted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob K (Post 132847) Edit: Now I see he's been removed as a mod. Damn.

Unfortunate, but true. I felt it was a prudent move to make, under the circumstances. Anyone who has ever been an admin on a message board site will fully understand this logic. I apologize to others who may not have the experience necessary to understand the reasoning.

"Unfortunate, but true. I felt it was a prudent move to make, under the circumstances. Anyone who has ever been an admin on a message board site will fully understand this logic. I apologize to others who may not have the experience necessary to understand the reasoning.[/quote]"



:confused: Rich, I am a more than once daily reader, and do not have the necessary experience to understand what happened ( I guess I missed the sawn song deleted post ), but would love to hear the explanation in order to better understand.

I dont feel that anyone told you to shut up. I think you are being a little bit too sensitive.

I'm sorry Rich but I have to agree here, especially what I have highlighted in red.

I don't understand why you have become so angry on the board as of late. I have been browsing and posting here for several years, and this is somethiing new to see. I don't know where this is headed, but it seems as though you are tired of the site and may be ending things in your own way. I am disappointed to see it (or to belive that it is happening), but I am afraid it may be true. This is not any ganging up, or attempt to belittle you, just a few friends asking what the heck is going on?

Sorry, but I'm just calling a "spade" a "spade". I have seen first hand evidence of law enforcement being painfully ineffective, bordering on dereliction of duty. I have personally seen law enforcement handed substantial evidence to prosecute and have declined to do so for suspicious reasons. I have seen first hand evidence of law enforcement officers throwing their weight around to intimidate private individuals, just because they can. I have seen first hand evidence of law enforcement officers believing that they are above the law and due special considerations when THEY break the law. These are all irrefutable "spades" in my opinion.

Now to look at this from a different angle, my last name is "Zuchowski". I have heard every Polish joke in the book. ALL of them are extremely derogatory and belittling to the extreme to people of Polish descent. Do they get me upset? Nope. Not in the least. Some are actually damned funny to me. Why? Because just because I am of Polish descent does not mean that those jokes apply to me, and I KNOW that to be the case. If one or more of them of them did, well then perhaps introspection would be a much more beneficial use of my time to determine why it upset me so much, rather than to get pissed at the joke teller and tell him "enough!".

I bred snakes for a living. I have heard many people posting insensitive remarks about killing every snake they see. "The only good snake is a dead snake" sort of thing. Hey, I don't like it, but people have their own opinions, and like it or not, it's something I just have to put up with hearing. Was it good for my line of business for people to be saying such things in public places where perhaps my potential clients could read it and perhaps be influenced by such talk? Doubtful, but that's just the breaks when it comes to discussions in public places. As long as someone didn't try to belittle me directly for my own choices of a career (such that it was), then I just had to accept the fact that some people would not like such a line of work, and would likely say negative things about some members of the group of people who do engage in that sort of activity, that perhaps reflected poorly on us all. That's just the way it is. As long as those detailed points did not apply to me, then I have no cause to get upset about it.

So what makes LEOs so special that they cannot handle when someone discusses the foibles of some aspects of their job and unable to accept that some members of their group have less than stellar methods of going about their duties? I seriously doubt that anyone can convince ANYONE that bad apples to not exist in law enforcement. So when this is discussed, along with anything that might even slightly be considered less than optimal, ethically, the method of the good cops dealing with it is to wish it were suppressed? To try to throw a rug over it? To try to stamp out all discussions in public whenever and wherever possible? Seriously if it pisses anyone off to hear that sort of talk, is it the messenger that is really the problem?

No, I am not anti-cop at all. But I AM anti-BADcop. The kind that abuse their badges and positions. The kind that feel they are above the law. The kind that will tell others to do as they SAY not do as they DO. The kind that treat the power of their office as a PERSONAL carte blanche to do as they please to "civilians" simply because they can. The kind that feel a badge suddenly make them untouchable in all things. If that offends some, then I suggest looking in the mirror and trying real hard to understand WHY it offends you. If you are not one who does these sorts of things, then my distaste for cops that engage in that sort of thing simply does not apply to you. Just as the derogatory and belittling Polish jokes do not apply to me. Nor the negative press about dumb and inconsiderate things other snake breeders have done. If the shoe does not fit you, as the shoe does not fit me, then what is there to get upset about? Those issues are not ABOUT me at all.

I am sorry that those sorts of discussions offend, upset, and embarrass some members here. And I apologize if you are not privy to all that has gone behind the scenes to make such discussions come to my mind at this time. There is no one here as a member in law enforcement that I know fits the negative descriptions I have itemized above, and nothing I have inferred or said has been directed any anyone here. But regardless, I do stand firm on my OPINION about the things I do not like that BAD cops do and I feel detrimental to law enforcement in general. And if I feel the desire to discuss them, then I most certainly will.

OK, let's see how you interpret same comments being applied to YOUR statements...

Z06 Rocket, my brother, my friend,...,enough...as a friend...enough.

That's not telling you to SHUT up, now is it?

But what does "enough" in this context MEAN then? :shrug01:

I guess you are asking about the quote I made concerning an admin on a message board site. This might take a bit to explain, as some things are not self evident and I had to learn through the school of hard knocks myself.

Well, on a message board site, it is not unusual for an admin like myself to grant moderator powers to one or more people for a couple of reasons. (1) Is that it helps to endow a feeling of ownership to some members who have already shown a desire to participate on the site so they feel a stronger desire to help contribute with conversations taking place, and often initiating their own new threads to try to start new conversations to help keep the site active and growing. (2) Moderators also help keep down the instances of spam attacks, simply because the admin, as one person, just can't be on site 24/7 to be able to handle them as quickly as necessary. I have had porn spam attacks wreak havoc on some of my sites that caused quite a bit of consternation from the members, and in some instances those sorts of posts can get a site blocked by corporate and home profanity filters at the ISP or router levels and put a site on a black list that is difficult to rescind later. So it behooves an admin/owner to get rid of such posts on a site as quickly as possible. BTW, this is also the reason why profanity must be limited and/or contained as much as possible on a site. And can negatively affect a site in quite a number of ways. (3) Moderators, of course, are there to "moderate" discussions when they become heated or otherwise blow up into what are called "flame wars" between members. This can produce a very uncomfortable atmosphere for a lot of onlookers watching the train wreck between other members, so the moderators' job is to try to keep such things from going beyond the simmer level to where the pot boils over. Continued flame wars will also often destroy a site as the majority of members cease to be amused by such antics and just take their presence and participation elsewhere to places where such things aren't quite so common.

So obviously there are a lot of solid reasons why moderators are a good thing for a site and can be quite beneficial.

Now understandably and necessarily so, a moderator has quite a bit of power on a site. An admin needs to pick moderators carefully as they are pretty much putting the fate and health of their site into the hands of said moderators. A moderator gone rogue, for any number of reasons, can completely destroy a site of this nature. They can delete posts and messages at will. Like ALL of them if they so choose. They can ban every member. They will likely know the viewing habits of the admin, and will know when they will have the MOST available time to do as much damage as possible before the admin can learn about it. In many cases, the damage can be irreparable. I have seen MANY instances of moderators who had conflicts with not only the administrator, but also other moderators completely destroy websites. I have personally experienced moderators who used the access they had to the memberlist surreptitiously contact other members and advertisers as they built their own website to compete with the one they were moderator on. This often happens when there becomes a conflict between the admin and one or more moderators, and they become convinced that they can do a much better job of the website. Which they decide to do, but of course behind the admin/owner's back. There are normally two ways this sort of damage takes place, although both can and have been used concurrently.

One method is to try to get the current admin/owner so aggravated with the site because of constant strife and headaches that they just simply want to be rid of the site. Sometimes bogus registrations are employed just to provide aggravations and headaches to the admin, but not necessarily. It's not difficult for someone with the knowhow to fake IP addresses to avoid detection, and of course, free anonymous email addresses are a dime a dozen. The idea is to get the admin/owner so tired of dealing with the BS all of the time that they just want to walk away from it all. Which, of course, those mods will be only too happy to take over. A popular ploy is for a bogus registration to be so much of a pain in the butt that they get banned and then another bogus registration strikes up the marching band claiming the admin is overbearing and dictatorial by not allowing free speech and legitimate complaints from the membership. Basically putting the admin in a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" position. Which is actually very effective if the admin isn't aware of what is going on.

Another method a rogue mod will use to undermine an admin and his site is to be building another website all along, secretively, while still maintaining the role of moderator and the appearance of all is cool, regardless of the friction. This gives a rogue mod a lot of time to get all their ducks in a row and contact other members, sponsors, and advertisers to bring them onboard with their new site. Often running the other site secretly while making those contacts. In this scenario, the mod or mods (or even some helpers supporting the mod and the new site) will constantly try to undermine the admin both overly and covertly trying to make the current site appear less attractive to the membership, and therefore make their own new site appear that much more attractive in comparison. Pretty much a sales pitch effort outlining the perceived faults of the "old" site and the changes that will be implemented in the "new" site. Fortunately, it is quite rare that these "spite sites" survive for longer than 6 months.

I have seen all of the above take place, and in many instances on some of my own sites with some of my own moderators. So I am quite cognizant of the dangers of what a rogue moderator can do and am constantly on alert for the signs. That is why I have had to take care in my choices for mods for my sites, and picked people I felt were trustworthy and stable enough so that the possibility of the dangers mentioned could be minimized. Obviously, for me to have experienced such things in the past, my batting record has certainly not been perfect. Knowing I have made mistakes in the past, my current philosophy is to err on the side of caution.

Now, no, I am not accusing Gordon of any of the above at all. But I have become very cognizant of the fact that when severe conflicts become more and more common with a mod, and their attitude becomes very evident that they disagree with more and more of my decisions, that the jeopardy grows exponentially that ANY person can not be ruled out as being a risk to my site. The fact that I have made this mistake in the past is ample evidence that it is not prudent to ignore the warnings and take steps IMMEDIATELY to prevent yet another mistake from taking place. It is much better to be safe than sorry.

Do I think Gordon would do any damage to this site or undermine me in such a fashion as I have indicated? No, I do not. I still consider Gordon a friend, however we just are not compatible in an Admin/Moderator relationship. As such, one had to relinquish that power here. Since it is my name on the door, the choice was obvious of who that had to be.

Now for the record, this is NOT my first rodeo running a message board site. I also run the following two sites and have been doing so for years.

http://www.FaunaClassifieds.com/forums
http://www.Cornsnakes.com

In both I have had issues with moderators that did not work out. It's just par for the course, and obviously a learning curve involved. I think the first message board site I created and ran was actually in 1997 or so. Trust me, you DO learn a lot about people running these things.

Anyway, sorry if that was a lot more detail than you really wanted to hear, but I felt I should explain this in as much detail as possible for those who really don't understand this aspect of running a message board site. The internet is littered with message board sites that have failed, and quite often it has been because of conflicts of this nature. I just do not want to see this site suffer that same fate, and felt I needed to take steps necessary to protect it in case I was once again wrong about someone I trust.

First and foremost, let me make something perfectly clear for everyone.

Unless I'm forced out, I'm not "leaving."

Yes, I'll be "elsewhere", but I'm already "elsewhere", and have been for years. Most of us have more than one site we visit. I've just always considered this one "home."

Second, I'm NOT upset about being "defrocked":rofl1:
The hours were bad and the pay sucked worse than Scotts proposed cuts!:D

I am however, a bit disgruntled by the inferences made in a couple of the post.

So....

No...it's not!
As you personally have reiterated on many occasions, the internet has no way of inferring feeling or emotion.
The only way one could do that, would be in thier style of writing.

In this case, the "Rich, my brother, my friend...." should have been seen as an attempt to reach out to a friend.

The repeated "as a friend...enough", should once again give rise to the fact that the author is reaching out to the intended reader.

In this case, it was a plea, from a friend to a friend.
An effort to let you know that the members were starting to notice and maybe we should curtail the repeated attacks?
And it was not just the LEO's (and former LEOS) on the board, but other friends and members, were growing increasingly tired of the repeated attacks on goverment as a whole and law enforcement specifically:thumbsdown:

It was time for a break.

This particular post was actually spurred by an email recieved by me from a concerned member.

I was acting as a FRIEND, not as a moderator.
As a mod, I'd have simply said, "that will be enough, or no more attacks, blah blah blah...."
I've done it before;)

People were getting tired and the repeated commentary was effecting the site.
It was glaringly obvious to me and others that you were angry.

I knew why from my interactions with you in the private, invitation only Harwood thread, and knowledge of what you'd been through with the 2 agencies you'd interacted with.

Others didn't and as you can see from some of the comments above, were concerend with your appaarently sudden change in attitude.

As an administrator, your words lay heavy on the members.

In the below post, you repeatedly use the term "rogue" when referring to moderators.

When the admin goes "rogue" (to use your own wording), it can also have a huge impact on a site.
In this case, I believe a very negative one.

And as with most scenarious, it's usually not apparent to the writer.
I've BTDT myself.

In the past, I've allowed sour grapes to influence or color my comments to the point where it was finding it's way into almost every post or conversation, on and off the board.

The redundant commentary was driving away friends and turning off potential new members.
As for your recent interactions with law enforcement, you've come to me for help, and I've done everything I could to help guide you.
In turn, you've either disregarded the suggestions, chosen to do things your way, or failed to follow through.
As a result, you've been tossed aside by the system, resulting (IMHO) in the situation you have now. A very negative (and justifiably so) feeling toward law enforcement in general.

That said, it's still not fair to paint everyone with the same wide brush.

We aren't talking about "jokes" or "snakes."

As for my own issues not so many years ago, It took a lot of introspect to find that and do away with the hurt and anger I was feeling.

As a friend, and at the risk of having you again lash out at me, I'm going to suggest that you too may want to take the time to look inside.
Otherwise, the anger will eat you alive...trust me!

Looking back, it was pretty disgusting. I can only hope I've learned from those days gone by and don't ever revisit them regardless of the situation.

Hopefully you won't take the above as some sort of condescending or derogatory commentary. It's just my opinion.

Be that as it may, I can't believe what I'm reading below.....

This was exactly what was happening, except in this case, the rhetoric was coming from the ADMIN.
So how do you "moderate" that?

"ROGUE?"

I think you'll recall this happening with another member here, and the steps I took to resolve the matter;)
Yeah, that was pretty "rogue.":lmao:




So I'm suddenly not trustworty or stable?
Is that what you're implying?
My wife could have told you about the "stable" part:rofl1:

[quote]Now, no, I am not accusing Gordon of any of the above at all.[?QUOTE]

Of course not...

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially what you're saying is, disagree with you on matters other than the operation of the site, and you're a "security risk?"

Although it's common knowledge that you and I disagree on the need for full names to be public to post in the BOI, (there are other ways) I've ultimately supported your need or desire to do so.

We've disagreed and debated on other matters on the board, from the oil spill, to seafood, to well, now law enforcement.

But when these rifts have come up, I thought we were doing so as a member of the board and not as a moderator.

If as a moderator, one looses the ability to participate without walking lockstep with the site administrator, then I'm no longer in the position in the first place.:thumbsdown:
I certainly didn't realize it was in the "job description."

From day one until today (well, yesterday now), I've done nothing but support you and attempt at every opportunity, to help it grow into a flourishing site.

Even when traffic continued to diminish, I tried to remain positive and keep things moving!

Myself and another member have even offered to take over the site if YOU decided to "shut it down" as you're suggested a few times in the past when traffic has slowed to a standstill.

No one has ever attempted to "take" it or it's members "from you."
Only to try to keep it up, running and open for it's members.

We've suggested more commercial sponsorship, and a more business approach, but you've always said, that's not what this site is about:thumbsup:

Now, all of a sudden, there's this concern over "undermining" the site?

And as I've said dozens of times in the past, there's room on this great wide web for many sites.

Most of us belong to more than one anyway, whats the big deal unless it's a commercial venture, which this has never been!

I'm not sure why you have suddenly decided that I'm such a "risk", which despite the flowery commentary in your lengthy (I thought I was reading one of my own novellettes:lmao:) "explanation", is glaringly obvious.:nonod:

I've talked the sites free spirited and open, non-commercial, family atmosphere at every opportunity to the point of I fear, occasionally alienating friends from other sites.

So your sudden concern that I'm somehow "Rogue" is a bit baffeling?

Until yesterday, the concerns you've outlined, had never crossed my mind.
Sorry, I just don't work that way!

"warnings?"
"Mistake?"
Trying to keep you from destroying your own site is a mistake?
I truly give up!
:rolleyes:

Somehow Rich, after reading everything you've written above, I find this last part a bit hard to swallow.

Wow.....just wow.....I really don't have any other words to sum up what I've just read:nonod:

I'm sorry Rich, but the redundancy of the term "ROGUE" throughout the post, combined with all the other "FEARS", leads me to believe that there may be bit of parnoia involved, from someone who, for what ever reason, has lost faith in his fellow man:(
I'm sorry if I caused you such concern.

I'm sorry to see this and I truly hope you find a way to deal with your feelings and emotions in all regards.

For me, it's late, I've wasted far more time on this than I should have and I still have work to do.


BTW- This is why I do a lot of these post in the early AM.
It's not to "SNEAK" anything by, it's because that's when I'm up and working.
I've worked on this post for hours between writing and working.
I'm tired and I'm going to bed...hopefully, I won't wake up banned:eek::wavey:

Gordon

BTW-To further my point...It appears that once again, my second "contact info" post has been deleted.:nonod:

Look, for the record...to whom this may concern...I'm not trying to sneak this in!!!!

MY PM BOX IS FULL!! And I don't want to clear it at the moment!

That's it!
Bo sour grapes, No "swan song" (EVEN SAID SO IN THE THREAD-NOT GOING ANYWHERE)
It's just that I'm busy and do not have the need to be on line as much as before, much less the time.
It provides those that want to talk with me, an alternate means to do so...PERIOD!
That's it, bottom line, end of discussion.
Am I really that much of a threat?:rolleyes:
How about putting it back up?
WTF?:shrug01:Dang!!!

I GIVE UP!

Just let it go Gordon. Many of us have said the same things but obviously we're wrong. Personally I know if law enforcement did wrong by me I would bring them to task and not just talk about it. I would also not talk about LEO's in general like they're a piece of trash.

You say another post has been deleted? Is that the one with your personal contact info? I have posted my personal info in the BOI so I need to remove it.

I have been proud to be a member here, considered this site to be home away from home and I always tell new guys like Jpee and Ernie that they can post whatever and not suffer any consequences. That's obviously not true any longer but I'm sure they see that.

I have been Admin on two sites and I can tell you members cannot be stolen and directed somewhere else. They leave voluntarily for reasons of their own. Also, as you stated members tend to belong to more than one site. It was my job as Admin to provide a place where 'they wanted to stay'.

I'm done with the matter.

I'm getting ready to head back to Tampa and back to more work, so my time will be limited again for a few days:(
I'm hoping things become a bit more stable and I can be more involved again:thumbsup:

Yes, it appears, unless I've somehow missed it, that a second, even more generic thread, regarding my contact info has been deleted.

I was always instructed that we don't edit a thread, we only delete when absolutely necessary and then so it can be referenced later (which would have elimintaed a lot of speculation if that had instruction had been followed),and only lock one when we have to.

Then these two get locked back to back?
It gives the appearance that we're trying to prevent or hide something?

Rather than push the issue, in fairness to the site, I'm letting it go.

It places the administrator and other mod(s) in a precarious position and I don't care for that.
It's like doing something intentionally in front of a cop, then expecting them to give you a break for it:NoNo:
It's unprofessional.

The folks here that know me, know how to reach me. Those that don't, can go through you or KAP, BEEPSTER, Zo6 Rocket or a number of others that do to get the information.

As for the comments and implications made, I guess it's a matter of opinion and history.

Rich has a history of running websites and as such, has had his share of issues with people (mods, members and threats) on them.

I understand where he's coming from amd respect his concerns.

I don't however, appreciate those thoughts being conveyed in my direction.

Reading between the lines, that's exactly the way I percieved it.
If I'm incorrect ro reading more into it that there is, my apologies, but I don't believe so.

I've made a living both in and out of law enforcement, doing just this, reading people and reading between the lines.

I'm sorry he chose this route, but as I've said many times before, it's his sandbox.

He has made me think of some options and for that, I'm grateful.

I'm still here unless he decides otherwise, and if/when business get's under control, I may be more active.

I want to move on to greener threads:)

I hope I'm finished with this mess and this thread:thumbsup:

Gordon