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Originally Posted by Rich Z
Well, if that happened to me, that's what God made lawyers for....
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This approach can be as costly as having the part rebuilt or replaced.
GM knows this and they rely upon this to keep the "common" person in check.
For those who choose this route, let me suggest that you have your attorney include "fees and costs" in thier demand
Then all you have to do is win the battle and convince the judge/jury that you should be awarded said fees and that each party should not be responsible for thier own legal fees.
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Yeah, their advertising copy promotes the thought that this IS a race car, and that sells cars for them. Well, if someone uses it in that manner, then they are only using the car in the manner it was sold to them advertised as being capable of. You can't sell a fishing rod and deny the warranty because fish pulled on it.
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Adervtising is designed to sell cars, period.
To appeal to the A.J. Foyt, the weekend warrior, in all of us.
And to that end, it does a fine job.
As a result, most incorrectly percieve these cars as "factory
race cars" when in fact, they're not.
They are however,
Corporate, or "Factory"
high performance production vehicles (the ZR! to a lesser degree) along the lines of the Z28, Z06's of old, ZL1's and a host of other "factory" built corporately sponsored speciatiy vehicles.
Many of these limited production vehicles were built soley to allow thier true corporate RACE CARS to be allowed to compete in such events as SCCA road courses and the like.
They are however, a cut above the off the line, mass produced brothers and sisters that bear the same base name. An attribute we pay for at purchase time.
If they were in fact true "Race cars", they would have the necessary safety components such as caging, fire retardant systems, belts, etc, built in, and a lot of the "creature comforts" left out
As well, depending on which "race" it was prepped for, the HP would be fixed (in some cases REDUCED OR LIMITED) and certain exterior attributes would be added or removed.
Much the same as thier historical brethren, the Superbees, Z28's 'Cudas, and such, they are street terminators. The weekend racers weapon.
While the true race versions of the historical counterparts were ruling tracks, thier street level counterparts were dominating street and bracket battles across the country
Again, if these were true "race cars", the vast majority wouldn't buy them. They'd be too tempermental, too uncomfortable, and too difficult, to operate daily upon the streets.
So.....advertising and implications aside,
READ THE WARRANTY.
If it's not expressly specified in writing, then it's either non-existent, or it's "implied."
Both leave themselve wide open for costly legal battles.
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Originally Posted by ironhorse
GM has denied Warranties of a few guys who have run there cars at the track...GM in fact has denied some warrianties because of it...The problem with lawyers, they cost money...Alot of money...I am not saying this happened alot, it hasn't, but it has happened...Most people do not have a lawyer on retainer 24 hours a day, GM does...people have argued the fact that they did sell this as a race on the track, then drive it home...I agree
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GM should have lawyers...you, I and the rest of the taxpaying public have PAID for them with the bailout $$$ givenh them in the past!
That ranting aside, GM as well as other manufacturers, have in the past had "people" at various tracks and HPDE's throught the country, videotaping and photographing vehicles been crashed and thrashed, raced and worked on.
They can then become more "proactive" in thier approach to warranty work.
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Originally Posted by Bob K
I tune my car and have been doing so since it was new. I have never been denied warranty at any dealership. About a week ago my car was in for repairs and GM installed a new PCM. Then they (GM) had the mechanic call me and ask me to come in and set the lockup to 50 MPH for the torque converter, which I did. That setting is in the tune. Again, GM requested I make the change.
If you have friends that have been denied repairs because they tuned their car there's something wrong and they need to appeal. It was probably the dealers decision and the burden of proof is GM's responsibility. They have to prove beyond a doubt that your actions or parts that you installed caused the failure. They need to read their warranty.
Rich, I have told you this before. I have had two transmissions and two torque converters replaced. So far this year warranty repairs have exceeded $13,000 (thousand) and GM paid every dime.
If your friends need assistance PM me and I'll give you my phone number and I'm more than willing to give them any info or help they need.
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I don't doubt wehat Bob is saying one bit! He makes several very valid points
It is still up to GM to make the case against the repair; however, once a bulletin is made public and been so long enough to be reasonable considered to be public knowledge, it makes it more difficult to challenge the ruling.
That said, it's not impossible. And unless you had recent warranty work, spoken with (on record) someone at GM or you dealership that made this information available to you, acknowledged and email from GM or your dealer regarding this matter, or it can be shown that you knew via one of these sites, that the information existed, without the benefit of a certified mail reciept it's going to be more difficult to GM to "prove" that you had knowledge of this change.
There is going to be a lot more of this nickle and diming going on in the future among all the motor companies.
Between corporate trying to keep the cost down, and profits up, the government, EPA, and other concerns, creating rising costs, one sure way to keep cost down, is to deny warranty work.
The best way to deny warranty work (legitimately) is to enforce warranty exceptions such as we see here.
If the local dealer or GM authorized vendor, ignores it and get's caught, they lose money...not GM.
It's just business.
Good business?
Bad business?
I don't know?
I tend to side with those who agree that if you want to play you have to pay
It costs $$ to go fast. How fast do you want to go?
Gm and other motor companies, have built some cars that go much faster and handle more precisely, than many of the owners are capable of keeping up with.
Unless your a track competitor, then why would I need to go faster?
If you are, then have a track specific car built and race the hell out of it!
If it breaks, fix it!
Don't go whining to the manufacturer that they are responsible for the repair!
As for aftermarket parts as Rich was saying, as long as they meet Mfg. Specs. (See SEMA) there shouldn't be an issue.
Again, it's still going to be up to the dealership/GM to prove the modification caused the defect. Even then, it's unlikely they can void the remainder of the warranty on an "it might cause future issues" claim.
It'll have to be taken on a case by case basis.
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Originally Posted by ironhorse
Hey Bob, do you have an LS7?...If so, you are luckey...In alot of other states dealers are checking to see if the car has a tune, if so, the zone reps deny warranty...Your dealer is not checking it or he doesn't care about your mods...
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They're chacking in Floirida too. It's only going to get worse as the economy goes further into the dumps and the need to control expenses rises among the dealers and manufacturers.
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Originally Posted by Bob K
LS1
My car is repaired this time at a shop that is an authorized GM warranty service center. He is not allowed to make any repairs until the zone rep comes in and verifies they need to be done. He did not deny claims on the tranny or torque converter or anything else.
These are not entirely true statements. I can modify a stock GM tune that came with the car and the numbers do not change. They only change if I put a completely different tune in the car. For many years these files (tunes) have a history log and it's very simple to go into that file and see what changes have been made.
I don't want to write a book here and I will send anyone my phone number if they wish to discuss it. I have stated in a previous post that GM has to prove your tune resulted in the failure. My tune actually lowers the shift points, fixed the generic timing errors and corrected the fuel trims. There were many more changes but these are the main ones.
Last but not least we have an appeal process that does not involve lawyers. The burden of proof is with GM.
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I won't disagree and Bob may be right on the money here.
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Originally Posted by ironhorse
The warranty issues have been coming uo alot...especialy broken valve springs, oil starvation in LS7 motors. Guys running the car on road courses, there has been cases of oil starvation not so much on 2009-11 Z06, but 06-08 before they increased the oil from 8 quarts to 10 quarts...Down here is S Florida most dealers will check for a tune, if the motor has dropped a valve, or other internal motor problems...Or if the zone rep gets involved because of internal motor issues or a blown up motor...
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This is an interesting issue in itself.
What GM essentially is saying is, "We" (GM)
failed in our previous attempt to build a "track ready" production car, by designing an insufficient oiling system.
When we (GM) realized the "
failure" we (GM) corrected the issue in the later model vehicles.
The question here (not being a Z06 owner) is, did they (GM) issue a TSB and offer a free upgrade/repair to correct the insufficency?
Since they've (GM) idenditified a potential system insufficiency, it's up to them to make the necessary repairs available to the previous model buyers along with the upgrade cost.
That said, if you were operating the vehicle within the parameters it was designed for, and it failed, GM should be on the hook for the repair.
Now, all we need is a attorney at $150.00/$300.00/hour to tee this up....see how easy, and expensive it is to make the arguement?
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10)What about Magnuson Moss?
You're kidding right?
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Frankly, I detest a response like this.
So, to whomever you may be, no, we're really not kidding....right?
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm
Magnuson Moss is a
very real FEDERAL case, with very real implications when violated.
As for anyones specific case, you'll be well advised to again
READ THE WARRANTY, familiarize yourselves with the above named act, get to know and understand SEMA, and possibly snuggle up to someone who practices federal and/or business law....just in case
And disregard ludicrous comments as the one previously stated.
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11) Where does the information come from?
Many of you know I have attended many of the NCM HPDEs that include many of the GM engineers. I have built an honest relationship with many of them. I was one of the first lucky one's out on the track with my Z06 on a regular basis. I continually provided real customer information to them and they provide honest feedback to me. It’s a relationship built on trust. This information is coming straight from GM. They trust me not to ask questions I realize they can not and will not answer, and they trust me not to provide their names and positions which would result in bombardment of Internet questions. Those of you who have met me have seen this first hand. Please do not get hung up on which individuals and departments it came from. There are enough forum members here who can verify my integrity and my contacts. Let's keep this about our beloved Corvettes!
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Well la-tee feckin' da...ain't we spechul?
There are some over at the blue site and brand X that fit this bill, but based upon the above description, it really doesn't matter.
What they're regurgitating, is what GM and it's peeps want them to know...period.
This "I know it all", "I hob nob with the "in crowd" just doesn't impress me.
There doesn't seem to be anyone on his/her list of "in crowders" that are not nose deep in GM's posterior.
So why would there be any discussion?
Who would support Magnuson?
Of course, no one is the answer. As such, as you see, there's no answer from "the source" quoted above.
The arrogant response of the author that this is nothing and has no control over GM (or any other company) warranty actions, although typical, is immature and dangerous, and certainly NOT in the best interest of the user/consumer.
All this said, I again state that, if you want to play you have to pay.
Take the stock car out and use it as it's designed, and you may be ok.
Mod it, and you may lose some or all warranty support, depending on the modification and damage.
It's up to YOU as the consumer to know and understand your rights and GM's (or anyones elses for that matter)
role and responsibilities to YOU
CAVEAT EMPTOR!
The money would have come in handy to pay my Excedrin bills......
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